Reference Profile Series: The Captain Manager
Dive into the fascinating world of the Captain Reference Profile with hosts Sara Best and Karen Schulman as they unpack what makes this leadership pattern tick. Captains are natural-born leaders characterized by high dominance, high extraversion, low patience, and low formality with a corporate cutback—a combination that creates problem-solvers who excel at seeing the big picture while driving change and innovation.
Click here for a short video about the Captain
Click here to get your very own Reference Profile
-
The Bosshole® Chronicles
"Reference Profile Series: The Artisan Manager"
Original Publish Date: 4/8/2025
Hosts: Sara Best & Karen Shulman
Sara Best: Hey everybody, welcome back to The Bosshole Chronicles. Today for you we have a reference profile episode. Today we're going to talk about the captain pattern and I'm excited to jump in with my colleague and friend, Karen Shulman.
Announcer: The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, the talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode.
SB: Hi everybody, welcome back to The Bosshole Chronicles. This is Sara Best, your co-host, and I'm so excited to be joined today by the ever-amazing, ever-popular Karen Shulman. Hi Karen, how are you?
Karen Shulman: Hi Sara. Thank you for that nice introduction. I'm great. How are you doing?
SB: Good and, by the way, for our listeners, that's the worst thing you can do for a low-B person, a low-extraversion person is gush about their amazingness, but I can't help it, Karen. Just yesterday actually, I talked to someone who worked with you in a previous chapter. Every person I meet who's ever worked with you can only say the most positive and amazing things about you.
KS: That's very nice. You do not know how big my payroll is, so that maybe influences it.
SB: Well, it is so great to be together. This is not on accident. You and I are here today. We're doing another reference profile episode. Today we get to talk about the Captain pattern, and why is that significant, Karen?
KS: It is significant because one of the people that is not here today is John, and John has the captain pattern, so we may take a few liberties, I think, as we do this recording. Yes.
SB: This is going to be fun, so tell us and tell our listeners would you please describe the captain pattern?
KS: I will. The captain pattern this is somebody that has high dominance, actually usually very high dominance. They are somebody that which means they like to be in control and in charge of their activities and they work pretty independently. They are somebody that has fairly high extroversion, so they're sociable, they're personable, they are persuasive. They are persuasive. They have low patience, actually usually very low patience, and that means that they're pretty intense, they're restless, they're driving, they want to get things going, they want to make things happen and from a formality perspective, in terms of rules and structure, it's interesting. They typically have low formality, but they have what we call a cutback, and so they are people who have a very healthy respect for rules and structure and they will do what's needed to protect the corporation or the organizations with whom they work, even though that formality is low. They again, because they have a healthy appreciation for rules and structure and policies and procedures and all that.
SB: I love hearing about that corporate cutback. It kind of differentiates a captain from, say, a maverick that you know they're still going to be less attentive to detail but they're going to have natural follow-through and have a respect for the why of how things need to get done.
KS: Well said yeah.
SB: And if we neglected to say this in the beginning, a quick description is that a captain is a problem solver who likes change and innovation while controlling the big picture. I love that little add-on while controlling the big picture and in my mind I see a captain on the bow of a ship. Maybe it's a pirate ship, maybe it's the love boat, I don't know, but the captain kind of sees all the moving pieces and parts and is coordinating and eyeballing and just managing all of that. Would you agree, Karen?
KS: I would agree, and I do think that they have the capability to understand while they're monitoring present, they have the ability to see long-term. What's the long-term vision? Where do we want to go?
SB: Yeah, so combine that long-term vision. Where do we want to go with a sense of urgency? So you talked about low patience, as you described that pattern, Karen, it is not lost on you and I that there is a strong sense of urgency at times and driven competitive. I think it's kind of refreshing myself to work alongside somebody who has that natural internal motivation and drive. Not every pattern does. But it also, as you know, comes with its downsides and you and I were talking before this conversation. Another word so we have driven, we could say influential. Another word you landed on was poised. Can you unpack that for a second Right?
KS: Yeah, I think, especially when I compare somebody like myself, who's a strategist, versus a captain, and especially in John's case. John is very eloquent. John is very am just in awe of his ability to speak, his ability to craft sentences his ability to communicate, because he is so much more poised than what I would consider myself to be, and I think being poised is a definite tribute to captains. I think it comes with the territory.
SB: Well, that's really good to know and it might be helpful to reference. You know, John was in college a national champion, debate and speech champion. Maybe he had a little extra practice in there too. He competed at the collegiate national level and won.
KS: That explains a whole lot, doesn't it? Yes?
SB: it does. So we talked about the drives high dominance, high extroversion, low patience, low formality. How about the needs? What kind of needs does a captain have?
KS: One of the things that we already talked about is being independent, and they actually have a need for independence. They really enjoy connecting with other folks that have a need for independence. They really enjoy connecting with other folks. That is a need. They need connection with other people that low patience drives them needing a lot of variety. They see change as an opportunity and they need things to be mixed up a little bit a little bit different, a little bit challenging and they need flexibility, the little bit of the low formality.
SB: They actually need flexibility in their work as well and I think if John were here he'd say you know, there's a limit to the peopling. The people stuff is really good and I love that. But he also likes to focus on the work and I think captains are by nature more task-focused than relationship-focused. So, they need a balance in both.
KS: Great point, Sara.
SB: So we talked about drives needs, Now let's unpack typical behaviors. We've kind of already done this, Karen, but what are a few regular behaviors we could anticipate from a captain?
KS: Yeah, I think they tend to be rather competitive. I think we see that. We definitely see that with our captain. They tend to be really enthusiastic, especially about the things that they are just really charged up about and new things and variety. They're just, they tend to be very enthusiastic. They like, like we mentioned, they like to drive and get things done the more the merrier.
SB: Yeah.
KS: And, and sometimes you will find captains to be non-conforming
SB: Wait, wait. Non-conforming captains?
KS: Non-conforming. Yeah, say more, talk that, Sara. No, you say more, you go first.
SB: Well, I think John would joke sometimes as a captain that you know there is a rule book but he might have written it. Or it only applies if it's within his scope and I certainly relate to that too as a persuader, but non nonconforming, like there's a better way to do it. Or, you know, the confidence I have in my own ideas might influence my need to have it done a certain way versus the way the book would suggest.
KS: Yeah, we see that. Yeah, very well said.
SB: So we've got drives, needs and behaviors. How about signature work style? So, in the workplace, what kind of things are we going to let's talk about communication with a captain.
KS: Okay, well, I think, driven by a lot of that dominance drive, they tend to be pretty authoritative. They can be very telling. Yeah, obviously, if you have a, if you have a captain that does some adapting, you won't see that as much, but in an average captain, yeah, authoritative and telling. And here we go. It talks about captains being articulate communicators. That's the poise that we were talking about.
SB: Yeah, I want to just circle back to the authoritative and telling. Any pattern with higher dominance would naturally have a confidence in one's own ideas and a need to influence outcomes and I think that direct nature. I remember sitting in a meeting. There were actually two captains in the meeting across the table from me and the conversation kind of was coming down to a decision and I watched the posture of both captains kind of shift and they sat up straight in their chairs and kind of I don't know got bigger maybe and it was like they became very captain-y. And I noticed that sometimes with the captain pattern you can tell when that authoritative telling and it's both an asset and a strength. It's decisive, I think, as from a leadership perspective that's probably welcomed by some people, but it also can be a little intimidating and a little dismissive, would you agree?
KS: I would agree. You know it's interesting and I'll ask you the question because I'm sitting here and I'm thinking all right, you're a persuader, I'm a strategist, we're both authoritative and telling. As well, we can be. Yeah, do you think that captains are more authoritative and telling?
SB: I think it depends. I, for example, as a persuader, have a higher extroversion so I try to make it more fluffy and feel better. But I think, just having worked with John for example, he can be very direct and to the point and that's it. You know it is what it is. It can be very helpful and it can be sometimes challenging.
KS: Yeah, and you're right, regardless of profile, if you're authoritative and telling yeah, sometimes it can show up, and it can show up loudly. And other times it can be a little bit muted or a little bit softer.
SB: Yeah, that's another good point, and it's like a dial. You know, adaptation, as we talk about it, means that you can dial that up or down. When it comes to delegating authority, we know, karen, that captains delegate details pretty easily. John, I would say, has a strong follow-through, a natural follow-through that I think he's developed, but in general, captains are less attentive to detail and less interested in capturing the detail. What do you think about decision making for captains?
KS: I think that and we see it in John a lot you know innovative problem solving. You know innovative problem solving. He is a master at being very, very creative and coming up with solutions that I could probably sit in a chair for, you know, two weeks and not come up with anything similar to what he comes up with. So innovative problem solving, pushing to decide things quickly, yeah, that's that driving?
SB: Yeah, I think that's indicative of captains. Well, and we would add to that that they are comfortable with risk. By design, captains are risk takers and they respond positively to pressure. This is key. You know, for some of us, when the heat gets turned up, we get more focused, more energized, more motivated. When there's a deadline, when there's a competition, so the captain pattern is no different than that. What do there's a competition? So the captain pattern is no different than that. What do you see as the strengths in the captain pattern, Karen?
KS: I think their ability to lead, their ability to have an impact in the way that they lead and how they lead, that the high extroversion I think makes them more people-oriented, much more sociable, and I think that, like you just talked about, their ability to deal with time pressure, their ability to adapt to changes and rapid changes, pretty strong.
SB: That makes a lot of sense. We know every strength can have a downside, but in this case for the captain, we know they can seem authoritative. They may be a little brusque at times in their communication and may struggle to adhere to direction or follow the plan. You know there's a structure here. They may devise a different way to do things. Way to do things. I think the other thing we like to do in these episodes is you know, if you are managing a captain on your team, what are some things that are helpful to know about, for example, how to motivate and recognize them.
KS: Well, they definitely, because they have that strong need for independence. You got to give them room. You've got to give them flexibility in how they go about their work and the things that they're taking care of. They do like to grow. They want opportunities to learn, they want opportunities to advance. It's important to them, I think, to demonstrate that they're responsible in whatever they're working on. So give them the latitude to do that, and they really yeah, they really like to be challenged. Too Tough problems are right up their alley. If they're not challenged, they're probably going to get bored. So if you have a captain working with you, you definitely want to make sure that they feel challenged.
SB: Just kind of dovetailing on that. Captains do need freedom from repetitive routine and opportunity to see the big picture and, you know, to solve for the big picture challenges or like lots of hoops to jump through or something that's already prescribed. If the job is rote, that will not entice the energy of the captain, Would you agree?
KS: I would agree. I don't think they'd be happy for very long, and then they might become a little more captain-y. That's right.
SB:Well, and speaking of that, you know we talk about how to provide direction and give feedback to captains. You know we talk about how to provide direction and give feedback to captains and one idea here is lay out clear specifics when work needs to be done a certain way, so they don't go off and do it their own way. But we recognize that that's kind of their inclination practical advice, practical advice and feedback, and not dwelling on, like, the minutiae and details. Let's give them the overview. So, Karen, what about if you happen to be a captain who manages a team? What are some of the things that we need to be aware of to be, you know, to maximize the team if you're a captain?
KS: Yeah, I think that tendency to believe that your way is the way that things should go sometimes needs to be tempered a little bit. There probably needs to be some adaptation and I think most captains that I know that really work on adapting, work on their listening skills, because there is a tendency to just drive things forward. Let's do it my way. Let's everybody be enthusiastic about it, because I am, and I think when you are a captain and you're managing others, you really have to dial back on some of those things so that you listen and you get people's buy-in a little bit better that way.
SB: Yeah, I think if John were on our podcast today he'd be chuckling. All three of us. But you not as much Karen, but John and I in particular move pretty quickly and it's easy to jump down the road in the middle of a conversation, have your mind go somewhere else and be thinking about what comes next. And, as we know, the mind only operates on one channel at a time, so you can't listen and move forward in your head at the same time. So I think that listening piece is really helpful. You got to slow down and tune into what's happening right then and there dial up that patience, if you will, and also, you know, manage the frustration that you may feel if things are moving slower than you wish or people aren't developing or producing results as quickly as you might wish.
KS: Absolutely. You know everybody has different standards, different levels of achievement and sometimes the captain's expectations may cause some problems for the people that they manage.
SB; Yeah, I want to add to that, Karen, that the level of detail that some people may need, the level of specificity or, you know, the details of a roadmap, might be sometimes a challenge for the captain who is looking at the bigger picture, who doesn't necessarily have an interest or an attachment to the how it gets done, but what gets completed. So for the people on the team of the captain who need to know how would you like me to do this? What would you like the end product to look like? They don't live in ambiguity with comfortability like a captain would. So another adaptation for the manager who's a captain is to know who you have and recognize that some people might need a little more time, a little more information and regular touch bases with you so that they can have feedback about how they're doing.
KS: Yeah, that's a great idea. I think captains, if they you know, to learn how to adapt as a captain, sometimes you have to ask the questions. I know I gave you a lot of information. You're probably needing more. What else can I answer for you? What other details do you need? And that will force the captain to listen and to pay attention and to meet the needs of the people that they manage.
SB: That's right. That's great advice. I'm thinking of " Captain or Captain my Captain. There's so many things we can say about the captain, but I think we've done a good job of covering the bases today, karen. Anything we should add before we wrap it up?
KS: I cannot think of anything. I think we've done a pretty thorough job, like you said. Well done, Sara.
SB: Yeah well, you too, and it's always a pleasure and a privilege to spend this time together, thanks to all our listeners. You know what. We will see you next time for a Reference Profile episode on the Bosshole Chronicles. Stay well.
Announcer: Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Bosshole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here. And if you have your own boss hole story that you want this episode of the Bosshole Chronicles it was so good to have you here. And if you have your own boss hole story that you want to share with the Bosshole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory@thebossholechronicles.com. Again, mystory@thebossholechronicles.com, we'll see you next time.
-