Lorri Slesh - The Sixth Level
Unlock the secrets of sustainable leadership with Lorri Slesh, a contributing author to "The Sixth Level: Capitalize on the Power of Women's Psychology for Sustainable Leadership." Discover how the often-overlooked psychological strengths of women can transform organizational dynamics. Lorri shares her expertise in fostering strategic growth and collaborative teams, challenging outdated stereotypes, and emphasizing the importance of emotional intelligence in leadership. Learn how recognizing the "water" — the unseen environment influencing perspectives — can revolutionize the way we approach leadership and organizational culture.
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The Bosshole® Chronicles
"Lorri Slesh - The Sixth Level’"
Original Publish Date: 2/12/2025
Host: Sara Best
Sara Best: Hi everybody, welcome back to The Bosshole Chronicles. This is Sara Best. Today we're going to feature one of the contributing authors to a fascinating book called The Sixth Level" Capitalize on the Power of Women's Psychology for Sustainable Leadership. Her name is Lori Slesh. Let me tell you a little bit about Lori. Lori Slesh is a strong and genuine communicator. She drives strategic growth and complex organizations with energy and focus. She attended the University of Michigan, where she earned a BA in education with a minor in psychology. I will tell you what I know to be true about Lori is she is such an agent of impact in the many for-profits and non-profits and startups that she has worked within. But beyond that, she's valued for keeping her finger on the pulse of an organization and building collaborative teams that ensure strategic alignment. I'm excited to have you meet Lori and learn about what is the sixth level, so let's dig in.
Announcer: The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode.
SB: Lorri Slash, welcome to the Bosshole Chronicles. It is so cool to have you here with us today.
Lorri Slesh: Thanks, Sara, it's great to be here.
SB: We have a lot to cover. I'm fascinated by the details of our subject matter today, which actually is a book that you were a contributing author to called "The Sixth Level Capitalize on the Power of Women's Psychology for Sustainable Leadership, and I just want to share with our listeners a little bit of a backstory is you and I have worked together, so we both live in the state of Ohio You're on one side, I'm on the other and I came across you because someone highly recommended you to do some strategy work for a key client, and so I got to know a little bit about how you work and then, after that engagement, got to hear all the fantastic things that you accomplished for this client and was following up with you to see if we could if I could refer you to another great client. So it's been wonderful to keep in touch and it just so happens that when we reconnected, I learned about this fantastic book and this work that you not only contributed to but really helped to catalyze and organize. Tell us what prompted the discussion and the need for this book.
LS: Yeah, thanks, Sara, it's good to reconnect with you as well. You know this book is kind of a long time in coming. I like to start off with a little bit of a story to kind of set us in the framework of what the instigation or what was behind the book, and it's a quick story, but basically there are a couple of fish swimming in the water, hanging out, and a fish swims by and he's an older fish and he says oh hey, everybody, you know how's the water fish swim on. And the one fish looks at the other one and says what water? And it seems simple and silly, but a lot of times we're, you know, in this ecosystem, right, we're at work or home or things are happening, you're in a family dynamic, whatever, and there's just the water, this environment that we all grow up in, that we just assume is normal, and our lens is realistic and I always like to think I'm super practical and common sense. And then when you look outside and in, you start seeing, wow, you know, these are some of the lenses that we see our life through and work through and how they're getting portrayed out into the world. One thing, if you know anything about Ohio and you probably do, is we usually address a room by saying, oh, hi guys, how is everybody doing? Guys, is the general term of really like Northeast Ohio, right, and you don't realize what you're really saying because you're just saying, hey, guys, right, which I never thought of and it's really hard to undo once I realize that I should be saying something like you know, hello everybody, or everyone or folks, which always sounds like I should be from the South or y'all, which never comes out right. So this book, kind of in conversation with the current authors and contributors, we just talked about this water that we're all swimming in and being able to look outside in and see how that has played out in our leadership roles in companies serving companies, just in our general ecosystems.
SB: I’m resonating with the what? Water and recognizing that for people's mindsets to be changed or challenged, they have to become aware of the water. They have to recognize. Oh, this is different, and so there's two things that I think about. One is women's psychology, the other is what you mean by the sixth level. Let's start by women's psychology. It's proven through research that women are psychologically different than men. Tell us your take on that.
LS: Yeah, I mean, if you think about all the studies that happened kind of before the 70s, and every research was primarily based on men and then it was just generalized to women or the other people in the ecosystem as well. So until the 70s, you know, psychological theory specifically was based on studies conducted by men who use male subjects and then would generalize those findings and most of them concluded that a psychologically healthy profile centered around autonomy and self-actualization and independence, which really plays into that whole Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, and at the same time those theorists would determine then that women were actually deficient because they prioritized relationships and they were very emotional. We're so emotional we just weren't built that way. I mean, even if you go back to sports, we weren't allowed to run around, we would injure ourselves, our internal organs, if we played sports or something which of course today you would think that's really silly. In 1971 specifically, Dr. Jean Baker Miller, a psychiatrist and professor at Wellesley College, wrote a book called "Toward a New Psychology of Women and she conducted all these psychological studies and found that actually a healthy human profile for men and women included a strong relationship feature and emotional connection which you know, you hear now the most recent term of leadership. There's all these styles of leadership and, you know, emotional intelligence has come out as if this new leadership model, but it's really built from that original research.
SB: When I was certified in the use of the EQI assessment back in the year 2000, actually, some of the initial research shared during that certification about the difference between men and their competencies in emotional intelligence and women was, I thought it made so much sense and I often thought, gosh, we could spend a whole week talking about how leadership really favors the male competencies, which, by the way, are independence, stress, tolerance and self-regard. Meanwhile, women scored higher on average, by and large with interpersonal relationship, empathy and social responsibility, by and large with interpersonal relationship, empathy and social responsibility. And even back then what people would say is yeah, well, the male competencies are the ones that get sort of highlighted and that's how you are supposed to be successful in leadership and in business. But it's actually the women's competencies that make the whole thing work, and that's an oversimplified way to say yes, what you're saying is, all of a sudden we have language now that we use, but these truths have always been evident that men and women are different and we need both. Would you agree?
LS: Yeah, the whole model is both and yes, you know it's not one or the other, which is the whole idea of you know the dominance and and you know that men are just better at leading and sports and everything, and that we leave women behind. It's both and yes. And these skill sets just like every skill set, they're able to be learned. So many times we think people feel that they're beyond just that, that they're great leaders and they don't have these blind spots. We all have blind spots, whatever they are. Yes, and we know that there are a lot of great male leaders and they don't have these blind spots. We all have blind spots, whatever they are. Yes, and we know that there are a lot of great male leaders and not so great male leaders. And there's great female leaders and not so great female leaders. So this isn't to say that every female is a leader. That's portraying all these characteristics. That's not what we're saying. All right, but again, we were groomed for the ethic of care, and men were groomed for separation from their mothers and families and going off on their own and survival, and, yes, right.
SB: Well, and as we acknowledge that it's safe to say and you and I were talking before we hit record that you know this is not a book to bash men. It's about recognizing that we now live in a time where global disruption and other things make it essential. Talk about that, Lorri. Why now? And whatever we decide to call it, it's been around forever Now. It's the water. We can see the water. Why do we need the water?
LS: I mean, we all know there's been several books, you know what got you here, what got you there, and you know, in terms of leadership, that everything has to evolve and the world is changing. It's a VUCA world. We talk about this, the unknown coming. We think everything that we knew before would just happen forever. And you know again, we have pandemics and we have all kinds of global disruption, and the speed of technology is so much faster. I mean we have to keep up and in order to do that is to think maybe our model of leadership was incomplete, which is what we'll talk about. It's not that it was wrong. I mean, you do need to know who you are before you're going to relate to other people. You'll just go to dinner and have to call your mother to find out what kind of eggs you want to order or breakfast, because you don't even know Right. So you do have to know yourself first before you can relate to others in a healthy way. And so that's what we're talking about. The sixth level, this self and relation theory, which really came out of Dr Janet Suri's theory, which is really in a nutshell, that self and relation asserts as we grow and develop through relationships, and those relationships shape who we are and then contribute to that psychological health. And the sixth level talks about what's in there. We really did research because the book is part academic, it's part storytelling, it's part workbook, because we kind of didn't want to leave anything on the table if we were going to put this book out. There was we have this theory that women lead differently. This idea of self and relation is not new. It was just never pushed up to the top in theory. And well, the best way to do it is just to grab a bunch of test subjects right and see what comes out of our theory of mutuality, the idea of ingenuity, this idea that women push justness and that's important.
And what motivates women? Is it external praise or is it this internal motivation which means, you know, if I walk by a piece of trash and pick it up and no one sees me, I do that. Not because someone's going to say I did a great job and thanks for picking up the trash Right. And so we had to test that theory rather rapidly to get that the book out. We had the theory and we wanted to see how that was going, and fortunately there are now at least enough women leaders to see if in that seat, that they are portraying these kind of core values or core differentiators.
SB: And they are. I presume they are. That's what makes them distinct and different.
LS: Overwhelmingly. We found that, each one of them in their way, it was a blind study. We just asked listen, tell us your leadership story and why you think your companies or your coaching style has been successful. And overwhelmingly, these themes came out. Mutuality is emotional reciprocity, ingenuity is the source of being able to be ingenious, inventive, creative ways to solve problems that are complex. And justness, being the guardians of trust and full representation. And again back to that intrinsic motivation you know doing the origins of just goodwill.
SB: I want to go back to. You had highlighted how you know women are emotional and we definitely get knocked for and stereotyped into being driven by or listening too much to emotion, responding with emotion it kind of makes me laugh because whether you're a man or a woman, there is emotion and thought all the time anyways. Like men may not have a well, any individual doesn't have to be a man or a woman, may have discomfort with emotion or a lack of awareness of emotion, but the emotion is there and I guess I want to just with you, I guess, dispel this idea that women and emotion and the expression of emotion do not have a correlation to impact or outcome or KPIs. Or tell me and this is just my thought, but tell me what you think about that this idea of you know women with emotion are less effective, less competent, less bottom line results, yeah, yeah, I mean every single one of our stories.
LS: If you look at it, the authors of this book, they came in or developed a methodology and crushed EBITDA. I mean it is not one or the other. Yes, yeah, you can't be the jockey in front of the horse, and so part of it is the with right, you can be a leader, but if no one's following you, I mean you don't get any street cred for that. You're just out in front. Right, and so all of these stories and contributing authors shared their with, like bringing people with, and part of that is most people think you know that's going to take too much time. It's just you know we don't have time, for everything has to happen fast.
Well, when you go fast, again, front of the horse, there's a lag and there's an opposition and there's conflict that is unresolved, and you know you leave all that emotion behind. You think. I think of M&A is like the worst place for it, where it just falls apart because what two 5%? I mean you can read the chapter Jennifer Vondervere. I mean she tells you like, over and over again, all this prep for the deal, the deal, the deal, and forget that you just left all the people behind and it just falls apart. So when we talk about this emotionalism or this emotional value of women, it's not I'm in the corner crying and whining. That is not the emotion that we're talking about. You know, we aren't computers. We do have to think about the impact of what we're doing in an organization and to get it to move from point A to point B requires the with concept.
SB: Well, an emotion is energy, so the awareness of the management of the respect for that energy and the use of that energy in healthy, connecting ways makes so much sense. So it is about self in relation. That's the sixth level, and there's a model that you've established and really built out and there's a whole chapter on understanding the model. Could you just give our listeners what you believe are the highlights? What do they need to know about the model?
LS: I mean, part of it is this framework that you were creating the conditions for success, and you and John have talked about it You've had guests on who have talked about this that you have to bring people with you and you can't feel like you're selling something. Nobody wants to be sold anymore. All they're doing is feeling sold in social media and what's real and what's fake, and so you can't really fake a lot of the stuff. So if you haven't done it now, the reparation will take some time. You're going to have to do some reparations. You're actually going to have to change and admit to changing kind of a leadership style, and that can't just be at the top right.
You talk a lot about the mid-managers that are missing out and the fact that we just put people in management positions and do a terrible job letting them know what that's supposed to be like.
It's more of a promotion to motion for my book, and so you know, in an essence, reading through the book, and the key concepts are that all of these things that happen that create the need for change, whether you're looking at anything from as simple as what do we do about a new dress code in this day and age, or to policies and procedure, is looking through that lens, that water we're in, through these lenses of these core values, to make sure that we don't have these blind spots and that we aren't crossing our T's and dotting our I's and moving ahead.
Because what ends up happening is you get in a room and there's a lot of nodding and maybe some enthusiasm and then everyone just goes back to their regular deal or talking behind your back at the water cooler, whatever they're doing now and they're just kind of creates a resistance and a gap which will lag right and create these pockets which you mentioned of just not moving forward. You either have the resistors or just people who are neutral and it creates this problem of you know why aren't we moving where we said we would go?
SB: Right. Well, you also had mentioned earlier when we were chatting about command and control, and that still is in ourselves and it's in the way we operate in many organizations. What the sixth level emphasizes and makes possible is that more of that trust and autonomy and connectivity and empowerment. And I know, I know there are people out there they're probably not the ones listening to the podcast I got to say I hope they are, but they're the ones out there going, oh, when is this going to blow over? Like, when are we just going to get back to getting the job done, getting those bottom line results? But I think, and this is why the book is so helpful at this time, we're not going back. Based on the last five years, four years of tragedy, trauma you mentioned the VUCA world we live in we are not going back. The volatility, uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity is here to stay and you know it's something we fretted and 20 years ago, like, experienced intermittently maybe, or maybe we always have had it, but we sure have it now.
LS: What's your thought on that, if you're looking to resolve problems and challenges which AI can help with now, looking at complex situations and trying to find the best pathway through it, knowing your capabilities of your organization, understanding the market outside of you and reacting quick enough to make a decision and move forward? Yes, it's a lot of information to take in right. We're on information overload and you could spend your whole career as a leader looking at all the statistics and never make a decision to move forward and you just have to have that balance and if you don't, you won't be able to move quickly unless you create these kind of core foundations within an organization, because there will just be resistors everywhere, pockets of them, they'll be overt, they'll be covert and they are hard to peel out and find. You have to make sure that the communication and I always tell everyone we're the worst communicators we have the most ways to communicate now.
You can text, you don't even have to use vowels, apparently. You can call, you can email, you can IM, you can walk over, and yet we are the worst at communicating because we don't assume good intent anymore which we need to and people are a little afraid, right, because of all of a sudden people are getting laid off, or or their division is getting close, and so they're always feeling like they're one step away from getting fired and being in HR. I hear it all the time, yeah.
SB: Well, and that's trauma. I mean that is, ongoing, persistent trauma. We should not be surprised that people are afraid at the edges, that civility is harder and harder to hold on to because everyone's so stretched and unhappy and worried and afraid. You make a really good point and just to reemphasize this approach, this leadership style, if you will, this leadership model allows for repair and restoration and a building of a new kind of foundation and culture, which, by the way, leads me to one of my favorite chapters in the book, which is your chapter where you write, lori, about the three pillars of a foundationally healthy culture and you share a case study, but tell us what the three pillars are, if you don't mind. You share a case study, but tell us what the three pillars are, if you don't mind, and give us a quick hit on the power of culture.
LS: Yeah, I mean I have worked in nonprofit. I've worked in for-profit In this chapter. I was at a startup and people often ask me you know well which environment is better or worse or how does that work. People that often ask me you know well which environment is better or worse or how does that work they're people. They really function the same.
You know, in a nonprofit or a startup, you have the oversight of a goal. Right, a common goal, an understood goal creates. You have to create a culture of communication and trust and openness, and you know stuff isn't going to go right. I mean, part of being honest is based on this information we have. This is the best information we have to do and to go and we're going to try this. You know you're either all in and decide you're all in or you say, oh well, let's just do a pilot study and see if we can get through that, but somehow you have to continue to move forward.
And so trust is the first one which we talk about, which is you know it just doesn't come with a title and it really hasn't for a long time. People have been resting on that for a long time, or the fact that you've been there a long time. In fact, that is like more of a deterrent for people that are joining organizations. When they hear you know you should talk to so-and-so. They've been through it, you know the ropes and they know People just have a very short time saying you know, well, that's how it used to be and we're in a new world so they can get discounted.
SB: Well, and the kind of trust you're describing would be what Patrick Lencioni calls predictive trust. Like have known this person for so long, I know how they work, I know what their thoughts are about things like this, I know how to position things to get my way with them. We're talking about. What you reference in the book is that vulnerability-based trust, where people are real and authentic and human and they make mistakes and they're okay to admit they make mistakes and it just opens up for other people to breathe and be a human Very powerful. So trust is the first pillar. What's the second one?
LS: The other thing that people do not like, and I understand this idea of performance reviews and I would say well, if you're going to wait a year to tell somebody they did great or poor, it's just a bad model anyway.
Yeah forget it and these regular check-ins. Again, being a manager is a promotion to motion right. You have to spend 60% of your time allegedly on others and you still have 100% of your work to do. So you do the 160% math and realize why it is hard to be a manager. When you talk about, or a boss and, like you said, no one intends to be a boss hole but at 160% of your energy and you're feeling that the folks that report to you are giving about 20%, then you're feeling pretty frustrated.
So that two-way street has to happen Regular discussions and check-ins. And again, you have so many ways to do it. Throw a text out there. Hey, how's it going? What is something I can help you with today? What are you struggling with? They don't have to be formal, In fact, more informal yes, creates the setting for where you really need someone to get up to bat. Yes, you really need them to stretch and you need them to do something that they're probably not comfortable with or that you need them to do Just blind faith, say, listen, I just need you to do this, don't ask, right. And so you have to have that regular communication so that support should come regularly and not waiting here.
SB: Amen, amen, amen. I say to that yes. And the third pillar, my favorite, the inspiration. Yes, the perspiration. Nobody talks about inspiration. I mean maybe they're not even conscious of the need for it. But wow, it's rich what you talk about here. Tell us about inspiration.
LS: I mean a lot of people. You say why do you do this? Why do you again? I talked to a lot of people. You have a lot of choices where you can work, today more than ever, because you can work all globally, remotely from your home. Yes, so what is it that gets you energized?
When I talk to people about this book or my work, I mean I am a high energy person. I'm not exhausted by it. It doesn't deflate my enthusiasm, and introvert or extrovert, it doesn't matter. What is it that you are? Are you in that right seat we talk about? Are you feeling as a contributor, this idea of being a contributor and what that means and for some people it is. I just want a paycheck and I say that's fine too. So let's talk about what that means in terms of your role and what we're going to get done every day. So you just have to find out what is the meaning of work to that individual and from there you can figure out how far you're going to be able to take them or not. Not everybody aspires to go up the ladder or be a leader. They just want to actually be somewhere where they can just do work and go home, because maybe their home life is a little more dramatic than they like and they write. They just have some sense of normalcy or regularity in their lives.
SB: Well, it stands to reason that everyone's different, absolutely. What I like about the inspiration piece is I'm guessing there's a pretty large number of people who have just disconnected from that altogether because they've been trying to survive. They've been trying to figure out the next turn and twist. You know, either economically, politically, within you know the racial injustice, all that kind of the climate change. Everyone has certain things that they're very focused on. But you know, these are cumulative stresses, interpersonal stresses and family things just add to that.
So it kind of makes sense to me that people, with all that's gone on and gosh, I hope individuals can look back and go look at how I navigated some of the most interesting and scary times we've ever had. Look at how I, or my family, or me and my partner, how we navigated that. But I think the inspiration piece is number one. People deserve it and and they're not maybe thinking about that I actually deserve to work in a place where I feel inspired by what I do and it's out there. I mean, it's definitely out there. So, these three pillars I want people to make sure they go to your chapter and read about that case study, because it is about changing the environment, the culture that people are working in and how they treat each other and you know you, in this particular case, you help this. This organization hit every single mark of success and they blew their goals out of the water, and that wasn't even the proof that it worked. It was what people said after. You want to talk about that for a second.
LS: What they said in response to the work that you did In this particular environment. I was in when I was hired, actually, so you know part of it. You talk a lot which is important about right fit and especially coming from a lens, because I wasn't always in a traditional HR role. I certainly am now. I've done a lot of consulting. I'm an implementer and integrator, if you know those terms. I'm really in both corner. I thrive best as an integrator, which HR is a great seat for, because it's a more traditional role for that.
But when I was interviewed for this job in particular, I was told that I was in charge of culture. So that was a me thing and I thought, wow, it's really a we thing. But I'm not saying anything in the interview, it's a me thing, great. And it's a startup with height. I mean startups are brutal. I mean you're high turnover, high stress, you're just burning through cash. It is a very stressful environment to get funding, to get sales ready, to pass all the benchmarks, to even get anything out to market. So this was really a high-pressure environment and it was during COVID, so we were spread out all over the country. It just was very disjointed as people are coming in and out of the organization to create this center, this culture. So I just said, listen, we have to figure this out. I'm new. They didn't have an HR person before, so I'm just going to do so.
I just said, listen, we have to figure this out. I'm new, they didn't have an HR person before, so I'm just going to do what I usually do is just have some conversations with people, why they join. You know, why did you join this company and what is it that you? You know not just what you do. You know I'm a software engineer, I'm a this but what that inspiration was. And you know from my chapter you can see that there were themes that came out of these which are just such golden nuggets of hobbies that people like that seem to resonate across the company and that we could put them into these categories. I called them biomes because it was biotech startups. It has to make sense for the organization. You know I wouldn't go anywhere and say, oh, we're going to start biomes. People would look at me like what are you talking about?
SB: What's a biome?
LS: Right, but the idea right of bringing people with, and so we created these like-minded groups of people. You know they were in their own groups. They generated their own ideas of what they wanted to do, kind of outside of work or within work. It's not like it was a million dollars to get any of it accomplished.
And the most amazing thing because I was not there long and I just keep hearing the talking points coming out of all their marketing material, like on LinkedIn when they're posting something is where they said you know they keep referencing this, the fostering of company culture, and saying that these are opportunities to connect over shared interests and that it's been invaluable. I haven't even been there and they said that these have become invaluable. It's become the thread that keeps everyone together. The new hires that come on are introduced to this biome concept so they can grab onto the groups and they're welcome in beyond their supervisor or the HR person and they can create an environment where they feel a part of something. Even though it's a disparate workforce, even though there may be high turnover, there's at least some core stickiness and interest in the people that are coming into the system and through it, because it's still work You're spending out and I love this example because it's practical.
SB: You know, people can deploy an idea like that in their own unique environment and they need to get the book and read your chapter. And there are other fantastic guides. I loved reading the advanced praise for the book. I mean, you guys have some doozies behind this work. Dr Marshall Goldspeth, Mel Robbins. Hello, Mel Robbins.
Like now, if she wasn't already, she has a household name now with her let them theory, the USA Today's gratitude guru. I've read some of this guy's stuff. He wrote gratitude through hard times. I think his name is Chris Shemra. Anyhow, just so much good to say about this.
One thing I know about you too, from a PI perspective, Lorri, is you're an adapter. So if people have been paying attention, they would have noticed in our conversation how you've referenced the many unique ways you've supported clients and organizations and the many positions you've had. Because you can do that. You have these four drives in a very unique capacity that you can flex back and forth pretty easily dominance, extroversion, patience and formality. And I think you're pretty damn smart. And I want to just say that because maybe there's an organization or a leader who may want to tap into your expertise, which is broad strategic planning, hr structures, culture design, things like that. So we're going to put your LinkedIn profile, obviously, in the show notes. We'll put a link for people to be able to access and purchase the book, and the question we always like to ask as we wrap up here, Lorri, is so what's next for you? You're doing work right now in an organization, keeping that on the horizon or other things coming your way.
LS: You know the book has become this life of its own, as you know. And when you say you know it is prepped for right now, for the exact reasons you mentioned, you know, dr Marshall Goldsmith and Mel Robbins and creating a platform. Just to be more open on what is it that is going to prepare us for this next phase of what we call leadership or survival? Yeah, several years. And what I'm passionate about is this idea of strategic planning. No one likes that word. It's almost as bad as performance reviews or a meeting, right. So I would say we don't have to use those words. We're going to talk about it differently. And you know we left 35-page strategic plans years ago, like they sat on a shelf and no one used them.
This idea of strategy do check, move, being able to use a toolbox. If you don't have a toolbox and you can't adjust or write size, you need those people around you to do it. And I don't have to tell you that, sarah, that's what you do for organizations as well making sure that toolbox that everybody isn't in one corner of a personality. And you talk about the briefcase, right? Yeah, people look great on paper. They have to match with that organization. So for me, it's getting the word out on the book. We've been taking the roadshow around. Yes, this isn't the be all end all. It's a conversation that we need to just start having and again understand the water that we're all in, because, unfortunately, the government isn't making us. It's not easy to be civil. They aren't, they're creating a. It's a dichotomy. Right now, yes, we're trying to create this culture of inclusion and justice and equity, and yet the world it's like you have to build a bubble that will attract people to what you're offering or it won't.
SB: Right. Such good stuff, Lorri, wow. Thank you so much for the work you've done with this fascinating group of authors Not all women, mostly women but the contributors are amazing. And the concept, just to remind our listeners, it's not about bashing men or saying women are better than men and we need more women. No, it's a psychology that informs, a new level, a next level to this hierarchy of needs that we all have. I think the encouraging part for me is we're wired for that. We know scientifically and spiritually and otherwise, we're wired for connection, but self in relation is the ticket for this new trust and autonomy that we need to build in our organization. So thanks for providing such a great guide for that.
LS: Yeah, thanks for having me.
SB: All right and we will see you next time, friends. On the Bosshole Chronicles.
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