Jenny Moebius - Heroes of Hybrid Work - Part 2
Here is Part 2! Unlock the secrets of successful hybrid work with us as we welcome Jenny Moebius, Senior Vice President and Head of Marketing at Skedda, and host of the Heroes of Hybrid Work podcast. Jenny offers an enriching perspective on why hybrid work is more than just a passing trend.
Links and Resources from the Episode:
Click here for the Hybrid Work "grader"
Click here for the "Heroes of Hybrid Work" podcast
Click here for the report on the Hybrid Work Debate
Click here to learn about Loom
Click here for Skedda's website
Click here for Jenny's LinkedIn profile
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The Bosshole® Chronicles
"Jenny Moebius - Heroes of Hybrid Work - Part 2”
Original Publish Date: 8/13/2024
Hosts: John Broer and Sara Best
Jenny Moebius: Because, yes, you do have to change the way you manage because of this lens.
John Broer: And what lens is that? Well, it's the lens of the hybrid workplace. Welcome back everybody to part two of our interview with Jenny Mobius, senior Vice President and Head of Marketing at Skedda and also the host of the Heroes of Hybrid Work podcast. I just want to remind you all that Jenny's links and the information that you need to learn about the hybrid workplace are in the show notes, but what Jenny will do today is continue the conversation about checking yourself as a manager is continue the conversation about checking yourself as a manager, checking your own biases when it comes to working with people that are in a hybrid situation.
What I also love about this part of the discussion is that we're going to discuss more fully the tools that are available to managers and teams to optimize a hybrid environment Technology solutions, all kinds of things that you can begin to employ right now. So let's jump in. The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode.
Sara Best: Jenny, I just want to circle back real quick to something that you shared which I think is helpful for all managers, supervisors and leaders. You said you shared, which I think is helpful for all managers, supervisors and leaders. You said you know, you checked yourself, you recognized that you were making assumptions and kind of storytelling about this person, which is so natural. It is our human nature to assume, and likely assume, the worst about a person or the outcome. So you touched on what we call the fundamental attribution error. Learned about it in psychology in college. It's not a new concept, but it's this idea that when somebody is not meeting our expectations, it's easy for us to make it about their character. We overemphasize these personal traits, while they don't care, they're kind of slacking, they're not stepping up to the plate, they don't want to do this. You know they don't want it bad enough instead of understanding the circumstances or the system in which this person works, because when we think about our own performance and we're not measuring up, we automatically think about the circumstances and the system, not about characteristics. So I love that. I mean that's a great tip for leaders moving forward is you know, when you feel that frustration and you you know you've got it going on with an employee, first check yourself your own expectations and what's the story you're telling about it, and then let's get down to the data. In your case, spelling out those expectations, giving that person data, working with them, coaching with them, eliminated the drama. So I think thank you for that example.
JM: Definitely. Something comes to mind for me. So this consultant I know her name is Liz Volpe. She works for Haven. She says it's an inside job. Leading and managing is an inside job. We have lots of conversations about that. It really does start with the leader and the recognition that you know you hired this person. You know they're great. Why would you be thinking all these things? There must be something that you're missing basically.
SB: Well, because it's normal to think all those things. We have to be a manager or leader of people. You have to rise above what is our natural human nature, which is to look at all the bad stuff.
JM: Totally. That's actually a really good segue into the fourth category which is training. So one thing that I was seeing and again just kind of everything's kind of connecting here, is proximity bias. That's connected to my story with my employee and it's connected to so many where we unconsciously prefer people who are physically close to us. And there's definitely some truth to it, because in 2023, live data technologies found remote workers were promoted 31% less frequently than people who were in the office. So again, we're all taught about unconscious bias, but are we taught about proximity bias? It's a new lens to see unconscious bias through. Are we being equitable to both in-person and remote employees? And it's- it's, it's almost like it should be a whole new training that you all could give right. It's like how can we incorporate proximity bias into our management consulting and management training? Because it's really important. And you all asked me if I ever had a boss hole and mine does have to do with proximity bias. So I was working remotely and this manager would have me present on our team meetings last and we would never actually get to me because he would have me present last, and I'm not sure they even knew, you know actually how, how this was turning out, but I was the only remote employee and I would always be presenting last and we wouldn't get to me and it wasn't like hey, I'm the next meeting you could present first, right, because you didn't get to go, and so time and time and again, these things would happen where I would kind of be forgotten because I was remote, and same thing would happen Lots of conversations in person with the team and I wouldn't be clued into it. This was a long time ago too, so where remote life and hybrid work strategies weren't really being built yet.
JB: Oh, you were being edgy, you were super edgy, yeah.
JM: I was an OG. Yeah, I was an OG, but it taught me a lot actually. Right, um, but uh but it taught me a lot actually. So, going into every job I had after that, I actually made sure my remote employees presented first. If there was a whole room of people gathering I would have them present first. I would make sure that their face was shown in every meeting. Um, and I actually get a little snippy about it, if their face isn't up on the screen I say things like, "I don't see. You know such and such remote employee. Let's make sure we can all see them. I make sure the whole team in person is actually signing in so that the employees can see facial expressions better, and it's not just like one of those hanging cameras, like from the top of a conference room, right.
JB: Right when everybody's at a distance and you can't even yeah, yeah.
JM: So that person taught me a lot and I'm actually pretty grateful for that learning, because then I was able to pass that on to my own teams, even though I feel like we could all kind of fall into bad habits there.
JB: Oh for sure, for sure. That's such a healthy way to. But that is tough. That is tough and I think there's some to your point that not only is training about, perhaps, proximity bias, but also that goes back to point three about our I kind of what you were describing in point three is also kind of what we would refer to as rules of engagement will happen within an hour, or we're going to use Slack or whatever those may be, but that's the same sort of thing. Let's not forget the people that may be in that little thumbnail, because their input is equally important.
SB: Right, right, I have a question, Jenny. Yeah, the collaborative hybrid meetings. You know, I remember those clunky, the technology wasn't supportive, the camera was up in the top of the room, nobody could hear or see anyone. Do you find that companies are now investing in technology that makes you know if we have a number of people in person and they're not all going to sign in independently they're going to be in a conference space, you know, are people understanding the need to upgrade their technology and make that very, you know, a great interface going on between people not in the office and people in the office.
JM: I don't think everyone is, and I still, even when I walk into co-working spaces, sometimes the tech is still very clunky. I'm a fan of the owl for what you just spoke about, where it actually focuses in on whoever's speaking. But even the owl can be clunky sometimes. I don't think we've got it quite right. I love using digital whiteboarding, so technology like Miro or Figma are really, really great for again just including remote and in-person workers. But do I think it's awesome right now? No, I don't. I think we all kind of struggle with it and we all find workarounds. Something that has been useful is AI recently, so I got Otter, the Otter bot, Otter.io and it takes all your notes right during the meeting and then it summarizes it and it spits it out.
So to everybody on the team, I think that's super helpful, just in case you were fully engaged or not, you know, or you had trouble listening or hearing. So when technology breaks down, supplementing it with some kind of an AI note taker has been really helpful. I love those things.
JB: Well, no, yeah, A colleague of ours used Otter and we started using Fathom. Actually, I got that from Drew Fortin, a common friend of all of ours. But same thing though, I mean it has been remarkably helpful of capturing those details and being able to share them with the team so that you're not, you know, looking down and taking notes. I mean I still do that sometimes. I love that idea.
SB: The other part I think about. You know, Patrick Lencioni's Death by Meeting. It's a decades-old book for a reason because meetings have always been very difficult and sucky, but in a hybrid dynamic it can be much more challenging or an all virtual kind of meeting. But I think there's room to grow for all of us to create a concise, you know, zippy and zesty agenda that keeps people on the edge of their seat engaged. But it takes effort and maybe that's the part that we might be missing in some cases people willing to to investigate and try new things and and put forth a different kind of agenda and different kind of experience in the meeting. Not to take us off track, because you have point number five coming up before.
JB: Before we get to point five, though, I want to, I've, I've, I know two example, a lot of examples, but examples of where, when we've committed to and we've agreed to hybrid work, where organizations have said listen, we're going to support you working from home, we want to help you get your office set up, and so they will allocate funds to be able to have this person set up. And it's not about just the right kind of desk. Do you want a regular desk or a standing desk? But it means, hey, we realize that in your area you may have to pay more for better internet speed, and so we will put that on your expense sheet. We'll pay for that. Because the way it's poorly done is where somebody's got really bad internet connection in their home and they're buffering and it's breaking up, or they're not even able to use video and it's only audio. So this is another consideration organizations need to think about, of investing in a better experience when it comes to a hybrid work environment.
JM: Yeah, yeah, I, I would. I would put that into the equitable experience bucket.
SB: I love that.
JM: And actually before we move on to the next two, um, there's definitely more to be said about this kind of training bucket because, um, people are finding there are certain things that are better done in person.
Uh, one of those one of those things is onboarding. So how do we make the extra effort to make sure folks are onboarding? And I did find this great case where Microsoft found that employees who met with their managers in person within the first 90 days were more likely to seek feedback, feel included and trusted by their team, build strong relationships, feel supported when discussing tough issues with their manager and get effective coaching and feedback. So I do feel that that's an important thing to discuss. How do you charge that battery and build that trust in person to kick things off so that when you are tackling tough issues remotely, you've already got that?
You already have that foundation built. I think that's really important. And then the second thing I'll say about training is the mentorship piece. So I can't emphasize enough how much Gen Z needs mentors and how much they are actually asking for in-person office situations. They want to come in because they are feeling lost, detached and disengaged because they don't have that in-person experience. So onboarding and mentoring and training for proximity bias, I think are really really key. Wow, that's great. That's some good, good stuff. Helpful for us too, because are really really key.
JB: Wow, that's great, that's some good, good stuff.
SB: Helpful for us too, because we have Gen Z on our team.
JB: Well Sara's daughter, Hannah, just joined us and she'd been interning with us for a couple of years and just is a remarkable individual. There's no nepotism happening here, I'm telling you right now. She's earned her spot, but she's Gen Z, and what was really interesting is she started her undergraduate degree remotely. So they've lived in a world of technology their entire lives and a lot of their formal education came remotely. So that makes sense that, hey, being in person adds a whole different level of connection for Gen Z. Okay, cool, all right, so we got one more or two more.
JM: So I'll just say the last one is actually could have been integrated into all of them, but I just like to reemphasize communication. Ok, so communication for all of the top four over communication is absolutely essential to be a hybrid work hero. When you think you've communicated something enough, communicate it again If you think you've asked your employees how they feel enough. Locations are changing, people are shifting their office space all the time now, so it really does need to be revisited and I just I can't tell my team that enough. But just keep communicating as much as you can, even if you think you're being annoying, cause they often do. They think they're overdoing it and I'm like nope.
JB: Nope, you can't overdo it. Well, what does Lencioni say in communicating clarity, Sara, you can't over-communicate it.
SB: No, there are four. Well, three of the four key principles for organizational health have to do with communicating. You know your strategy and what's important? Totally, I think all of these, Jenny. If I don't, I don't want to sound like you know, Eeyore, wah, wah. These are the challenges that leaders were maybe attempting to address, and and abysmally so, leading up to the pandemic, and so we, we enter into this hybrid work zone, but these are still things that leaders and managers and supervisors in fact, everything that you mentioned has an element that has been consistent in our frustrations with leadership.
JM: Right, yeah, it's the same as before.
SB: It's just a new way of working, so it's just the hybrid work lens it is. It's a powerful lens. Can I ask? So it's just the hybrid work lens it is. It's a powerful lens. Can I ask a question? I think this is a question. These aren't new challenges. The prescriptive things you've talked about are doable. They're very doable. I keep running into executives who are flying around like crazy, don't have any room on their plate, wonder why nothing is really getting done and why people below them are not clear on the strategy and their role in the strategy, et cetera. What do you think it's gonna take for some leaders to understand that the bulk of my job is this stuff that you're talking about? I have to make space and room to provide for these things. Otherwise, the rest of the stuff we do, it doesn't matter, I think poor results right.
JM: I think, poor results, I think, people leaving in droves. I think it will really come down to losing top talent and your company's performance dropping. And um, so I what I find is, a lot of times those leaders just hire great leaders. Yes, so it's also actually, uh, the if the leader, if the one that's flying all over the place, is actually doing a good job at job, at hiring good talent, that are great people managers they could be okay, I agree.
Yeah, it's a good approach, but yeah, so just one last thing on communication, because I forgot to mention it. Integrating a hybrid work type value into your mission vision values is has also been helpful. So, so, because you know you can reward it right, you can reiterate it and reward it. So something about flexibility, right, or something about um performance-based outcomes, along with flexibility, helps to reinforce again how to make it work and how to continue to communicate how, how hybrid work is going to work organizations.JB: I love this topic, Jenny. I also love the fact that you are so focused on helping organizations figure this out, because I just spoke to a group recently at a conference and Gallup's data would indicate that whatever is being tried for the the most part is not working and disengagement continues to go up. And I'm not talking about your clients. We have clients where they've actually reversed course. I mean, we talk about ERP, engagement, retention, performance. Just measure those three things. That will tell you if you're doing it right or you're doing it incorrectly.
I think what happened when the whole remote and hybrid thing virtual work sort of came along in some cases, I think organizations figured out oh, this means that managers can probably supervise more people, and that's actually counterintuitive. One of the things we talk about is if training, communicating, equipping, connecting and providing feedback, especially with the emerging workforce, is so critical for success. You cannot do it when you have 12, 15, 17 people to manage. It is impossible. And so what we have been preaching about maybe? Well, no, I guess we haven't.
I mean, our message is that we need to reinvent the manager and reinvent the workplace, but actually it's already been reinvented. The debate's over it's already reinvented. Stop trying to undo what's been done and embrace it. Mentor, the hub for communication, which means they have to have fewer people to manage. And you say that it's like, oh my gosh, we're going to take on that overhead with more managers. Yeah, because your engagement, your retention and your performance are all going to go up when you do it correctly. That's really interesting, yeah, well, I mean, like we say, sarah, I mean we generally fall to a range of about five to seven people. I mean that is about the maximum any one person could hope to do all of this, but if you have more than that, you will never, ever be able to help them with all of these things we're talking about. I agree.
JM: Yeah, I agree, and something resonated with me also what you said you need some more structure actually. So, because it is kind of the Wild West right now. It's actually, and I wish I could remember McKinsey's Phil Kirshner he was on the podcast recently. Structure, right, provides a framework for people to work in where they feel comfortable, engaged, productive, and they just don't have that discomfort of not exactly knowing how to work, where to be and all of those things. I would go back to that pot. It was very, very interesting.
JB: First of all, I know we're coming up to our time and I wanted to be respectful of your time. So, Jenny, thank you for that. The five categories. There's something else I want to talk. I want our people to know, our audience to know, about some takeaways. You have a quiz about hybrid work. Tell us a little bit about that and some of the other takeaways that we will make sure are in the show notes.
JM: I do. I do so. If you are interested in learning you know how you stack up with your hybrid work policy, office design, technology and communication, you could take a really quick quiz. It takes five minutes. It's at www.skedda.com, slash grader G-R-A-D-E-R and you can find out. You can get a score and then we also direct you to where you can improve. So once you get your score, we take you to a page that shows you a lot of strategies for improvement, a lot of the things we talked about today. And if you're not interested in taking the quiz, we have a report out. It's called "not another hybrid work debate Cause, as we've discussed, the debate is over and and you can, instead of taking the quiz, you can read it at wwwsketacom slash hybrid work all right, and that will be in the show notes.
JB: Um, yeah, wow, you're doing remarkable stuff. This is so cool. I'm so glad that we were able to share this with our audience.
JM: Um so too. Yeah, it was really a pleasure being on this podcast with you. You know, I think the world of you Really thank you for reconnecting and I can't wait to see it, jenny thank you so much.
SB: Heroes of Hybrid Work podcast. We're going to put a link to your amazing podcast in our show notes. Everybody else. We'll see you next time on the Bosshole Chronicles.
JB: We'd like to thank our guests today on the Bosshole Chronicles and if you have a Bosshole Chronicles story of your own, please email us at mystory@thebossholechronicles.com. Once again, mystory@.comthe bossossholechroniclescom. We'll see you again soon.