Dana Vogelmeier - The Workplace Atmosphere (and beyond...)
Our engagements at Real Good Ventures give us the chance to meet so many interesting people, and that's how I met Dana Vogelmeier! Come to find out she is an author and speaker and someone with a great Bosshole® story that served as inspiration for her book The Workplace Atmosphere. Check it out!
Links and Resources from the Episode:
Click here to get Dana's book The Workplace Atmosphere
Click here for Dana's LinkedIn profile
Click here to learn more about MRA
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The Bosshole® Chronicles
Dana Vogelmeier - The Workplace Atmosphere (and beyond…)
Original Publish Date: 10/31/2023.
Host: John Broer
John Broer: Well, hello everyone and welcome back to The Chronicles. This is your host, John Broer, welcoming you to another installment of The Bossh ole® Chronicles, and today we're going to have a subject matter expert episode and you're going to get a chance to meet a really interesting person by the name of Dana Vogelmeier. Now, I met Dana when she and I were both attending the annual conference for the Central Ohio Association of Talent and Development right here in Columbus. I was actually speaking at the conference on reinventing the manager lessons from the Boss Holes, and after my remarks, Dana came up and we had a great conversation, and not only did I learn that she had, of course, some remarkable Bosshole® stories, but she took those experiences and actually put it into a book. So I asked her, I said Dana, you gotta come on and share it with the rest of the Boss Hole transformation nation. And let me just tell you a little bit about Dana's background. She has over 25 years experience in the world of work, and that encompasses things like leadership development, training and development programs, team dynamics, elevating engagement for organizations, so she has seen an awful lot and of course, she has a great story probably several, but one in particular. That served as inspiration for her book. So I don't want to wait any longer. I want to jump right into it. You'll get to know more about her and really get a better feel for how she looks at people, how she looks at work and, specifically, how to help keep managers out of Bosshole zone. So let's listen in. The Boss Bosshole Chronicles Hole are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm, helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode. Well, Dana, it is so good to have you on the Bossh ole Chronicles. Welcome.
Dana Vogelmeier: Thank you, John, it's great to be here.
JB: And, as our listeners gathered in the introduction that I had provided, you and I met not too long ago, a few weeks back, at a meeting, a conference for our very own ATD chapter here in central Ohio, and we had such a nice conversation. After the fact and you know, in most presentations when I'm speaking at different conferences, I'm referencing Bossh oles and reinventing the role of the manager and you came up to me and said, hey, I got a story and I have a book. And I thought, oh my gosh, we got to get Dana on the program. So, Dana, why don't we go back to the beginning? Our listeners would love to hear your story, because so many of these stories turn out in a real negative way. I mean, people experience real hardship with Bossh oles. Whatever hardship you may have faced, you actually turn that around to your benefit and to the benefit of others. So tell us about it.
DV: Well, thank you again, John. I really connected with what you were saying when you were talking about Bossh oles, as many people I'm sure do. Every time I have an opportunity to talk with groups too, inevitably someone comes up to me just as I did to you, to tell me about their experience. And I've been in the workforce over 40 years and during that time you're going to have some bosses that are not that great. It's just the law of the large numbers, but I had some that were super you know, and then I had some that were fine, but I had a few that really were less than stellar, we'll say, and one in particular that really jumps out that I wanted to share with you. That really was the - it was a rough time and really what led me to a lot of my research and later work and to the book. When I was working for this for this man, it was for about five years, and a lot of the time during that time when I would like confide in my friends about what was happening, people would say why don't you just quit? And it was an easy question to ask. It's a hard thing to do and I had a lot of time invested there. Right. It, just it wasn't in the cards for me. For whatever reason, I just that's not. That was not the path that I chose to go and I was like I'm going to quit it.
JB: Quitting is what you're talking about. Quitting was not the option you chose to go. And, by the way, before the five years with this manager, how many years did you have invested in the or vested in the organization?
DV: 20. Oh wow.
JB: Okay, okay, so you're not. You were, you were, you were experienced and you had quite a resume and a track record with this company, and then this manager stepped in. Okay.
DV: Yes, yeah, and you know, and I had opportunity to move up and move around the country, and so I was also not in what I would call home you know, but just all a really great learning experience. Upon reflection, you know what? Again, just quitting was not really an option and I just kept thinking I need to work through this. I don't know what's gonna happen here, but that it is. It is what it is, as they say, and I will figure out how to get through this. Okay the things that I will say. Just before I had this boss, the boss right before. That was great, but you couldn't have asked to work for a better boss. Just loved him, loved it. So when he left and then the new person came in, it was really rough because it was almost like I knew in the first couple of weeks, like oh, this is gonna be a rocky road. Like you feel it. There were a couple of comments and, and I do think that you know, there is a feeling or an atmosphere in In the workplace and people can feel either kind of uplifted when they come in or if it can feel mucky and, yeah, not uninspiring.
JB: Drag will drag down. That's right, absolutely Okay.
DV: Yeah, so I definitely, you know, felt it early, but then you know there were different comments made and everything and I just had to kind of again work my way through it, just figure out what's my best way to maneuver in this environment, and one of the things I'll give you an example that that told me something about this person. As a person, I had a peer group of about six other people, but not in my location, they were in another country, okay we collaborated and we work virtually and everything, and one of the things he said to me early on was that it would be beneficial to him and to me if I could kind of give him dirt on my coworkers so that when they when he and his coworkers, his peer group, were talking, he could use that to kind of boost me and the rankings. And that felt so wrong, evil.
JB: Oh my gosh, that's unbelievable.
DV: And I'm comfortable, and those peers were my friends right, right. Honestly, I remember what I said in reaction to the comment, just so stunned first, of all you know again those instincts from the early. You know weeks that when he said it it was just like oh, I did not like this and I didn't you know I didn't share that comment with anyone at work Just kind of duly noted it in my mind and saw it really as a red flag. And you know, just as time progressed, there were other things that happened. You know different experiences and again kind of thinking how am I gonna work through this? But what, what was happening to me was feeling really deflated and I had I had always been what, what I thought, you know pretty an engaged employee. Right you know, working hard and trying to, you know, do a good job and looking for other opportunity granted, and you, I tried to give it my all. It was hard to do that in this very environment. I felt very deflated and in the morning when I would be driving in, I would just kind of have to mentally prepare myself and talk myself into. You know, figure this out Just, you can get better figured out. So again over five years, but during that time I didn't always realize that then there were pockets of it. But like I became depressed, I gained a lot of weight. And I struggled just with engaging with life. Even you know, you felt so beaten down all the time. And I really am a believer, and there's a great book called Everybody Matters by a CEO of an organization named Bob Chapman, and he talks about this in his book. When I saw, I saw a video about him and I saw I bought the book. But he talks about that too, like the way you make people feel impacts their home life, and so if you build people up when they're at work, then they go home and they're better spouses, they're better parents, they're nicer in the community. But if you beat people down at work, then they don't. They're not better spouses, they're, they're beaten down and they go. When it's that old adage about. You know you go home and kick the dog and I would never kick my dog but, the no, that's how you felt, and so it ripples. And the philosophy that he talks about, that I'm a believer in, is if we all have really good workplaces and, and engaged employees and leaders who were, you know, leading with heart, compassion and empathy, then people would feel better at work and therefore we'd have a you know it's a ripple effect. We'd have a better community. Oh yeah world. Yeah, so I was again not realizing all of that at the time, but upon reflection it really it was true. You know, I can see how I just became disengaged. Mm-hmm and not only that, not only work, but just you know home I do so.
JB: I'm sorry, if I may, really quick the contrast you provide of the manager prior to this one about how a manager can make you feel you know this. I'm reminded. A few weeks ago we had a gentleman on the podcast by the name of Kurt Green. He is a master Vistage chair out of Kentucky and he was talking about Catherine Schaefer's four questions. Have you ever heard about this? The four questions are: Do you see me? Do you care that I am here? Am I enough for you or do you need me to be better in some way? And finally, can I tell that I'm special by the way you look at me? And that's I think those are the leaders you're talking about, the managers that convey that and it's like, "I want to be here, I'm engaged, and then, but when you don't have that, all of a sudden it really erodes. It really kind of erodes and poisons your soul to the point where, all of a sudden, I am feeling this and experiencing this. It's manifesting itself physically, not just emotionally or psychologically. Physically I'm feeling this. So thank you for that. I just wanted to really point out that everybody has a boss whole story and bad managers are frustrating, but the impact is pretty significant and we will be right back.
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JB: Okay, let's get back to the program. All right, so you were talking about your time, like getting back home or when you would go ahead pick that back up.
DV: Sorry, no, that was awesome. I love those. I wrote those questions down, yeah. So I just I was feeling unengaged and uninspired, just, you know, in in life, you know not just at work but also in so over time and you know kind of looking at options and what, how can I get out of this situation? I need to get out of this situation. There was an opportunity and where I was living at the time there weren't a lot of opportunities with the organization. You'd have to relocate and wasn't ready to relocate at the time. I did later, but not not right at the time. So an opening came up. That was a step down and I thought I'm going to, I'm going to apply for it and, you know, cross my fingers, hope it works out. You know, so I did and I went to the other role, the new role, and had a nut, now again a new boss, right, and he was awesome.
JB: Another awesome one. Okay.
DV: So I mean, if you think about just in that time there you know, going from great to not great at all and then great again again, started feeling very inspired and engaged and definitely he was a very good listener. He was also just an encourager, you know where before I was not having any of that at all. So he was really good encourager. And so then life started changing again and I got kind of, you know, back to the program and then I lost the weight you know and started focusing on life a little differently and so again, upon reflection and looking at all that, I was like man, what is, to your point, what a difference. You know and I do take ownership, I mean I often look back at like, what role did I have in that? And you know, there were several things that I learned, and that's just part of who I am. I am a big reflector and maybe sometimes too much, where you kind of think it, overthink it. But I did. I learned so much during that experience and, even though it was painful and not when I care to repeat, I'm grateful that I had it because it got me here and that's where, even while you know I was in that new role and then in future roles, still today, it makes me a better employee having to do that.
JB: And that's a, that's a, that's a very well, that shows wisdom, that shows maturity. And at the same time, you could very easily see how people could harbor a huge amount of resentment and even blame themselves. You know the story they tell themselves in their head why am I here? You know, I I often think that sometimes God gives us the answer before we know the question and it's like why, why do I have to work for this person? Why am I being tortured? And at the same time, Dana, what I love is you asked the question well, what am I supposed to learn from this? And and what is my contribution? Am I doing something? And there are times where, with that reflection, that emotional intelligence, that self-awareness, it's like, oh, you know what I could do a better job to facilitate a relationship here. But we've heard plenty of stories where people have said, "I'm going to try to go the extra mile and the boss will just doesn't meet them there. I mean, we're dealing with just somebody who should not be allowed to manage other people. But I give you credit for asking those questions because I think that's part of how we grow as professionals and, as you said, it's made you who you are today and clearly was inspiration enough to write a book about it, which we'll get to in a second. Let's back up for one sec. So this manager this Boss or the bad one. We had the good one, the bad one, the good one. The bad one, do you know where this manager is now, or any idea? Don't care, I'm sure, but any idea.
DV: I don't know, okay, because you know many years ago. But yeah. So I don't know.
JB: Okay, okay. And when you left and took and, by the way, just so nobody missed it you voluntarily took a step down, a demotion if you will to get away from a particular manager. That to me is unconscionable. You know you have somebody who is for whatever, I mean, you clearly had established yourself with a good reputation and credibility. You've been there 20 years to have to make that step just to get away from manager, if, any company, if that's happening, you really need to think very carefully about why and how you are promoting people into management roles. And, by the way, one other question, because this always fascinates me was this an internal promotion for this manager or was this somebody that came in from the outside?
DV: It was an internal.
JB: And did this manager, to your knowledge, have that reputation before arriving, or you did not know?
DV: I didn't know. Okay.
JB: My guess is yeah, but my guess is based on what we've learned in the three years of doing the podcast, but also in the nearly 30 years of doing this kind of work that I have. There are probably plenty of bodies in this person's wake to some degree. Okay, so, dark times you grew, you emerged stronger, better, more insightful and you wrote a book. And the book is entitled and, by the way, go to the show notes, you will find a link to be able to get Dana's book. It is called "The Workplace Atmosphere. Actually, give us the full title, if you will.
DV: I will. So, yes, it is “The Workplace Atmosphere - Transforming the Dismal to the Desired”. So kind of based again on my experience like I had a dismal experience what is the desired experience that we all want? It's not just you know me and you like we are a good workplace and to feel good and feel valued and like we're contributing and part of something bigger than ourselves. So if you're a leader that can inspire and create that kind of an atmosphere in your workplace, people will go over and above the call of duty for you. Absolutely. They'll show up, they'll do a great job, they'll offer to do more work. You know they'll do all those things. They'll be innovative, you know. But you've got to create that kind of an environment where people feel valued and appreciated, they feel psychologically safe, they can contribute and you want them to contribute.
JB: Why is that such a revelation? Now, I don't understand why that all of a sudden? These days it's like in the last you know, five, ten, fifteen years. It's like what people want to feel valued in the workplace. How is that so revolutionary?
DV: That is such a good question, John. I don't know. I mean it makes sense, because what I believe is that many of it I mean if you've been in the workplace for any amount of time, you've probably had good and bad bosses, sure. So you know to all of the listeners, like you know how you felt when someone inspired you and appreciated you, and you know how you felt when you were not valued. So if we just think about that, and what are the little tweaks along the way that we can do to kind of change the atmosphere? You know, it doesn't always have to be grand. No, a grand gesture it's saying thank you and pointing out you know good work. It doesn't, again, it doesn't have to be big. And you know, actually, when I left that organization, I looked, you know, cleaning out my desk the last time, right, it saved like a stack of cards that people had given me either when I, like, left a department you know, like a good card or something like that, or when I did a good job and somebody was just saying thank you or whatever and it was. I still have them. It just they were so meaningful and cost almost nothing. But taking the time to do it and making it meaningful is the thing you know so that you people can create that kind of an atmosphere in the workplace. But you do have to work at it.
JB: Yes, I intend. I think there's an intentionality. You have to be intentional about it and I, like I love the point you make, Dana, that it doesn't have to be grandiose. I mean, if you just simply thinking about, think about acknowledging and showing appreciation and interest and, you know, investing your time and listening and just simply a thank you. I know that I asked you to do this and it's part of your job, but still, acknowledgement and thank you is very powerful and just human. It real good ventures. Well, first of all and I want to make sure everybody knows, I mean you may be thinking, "wow, John, you're being really harsh on this manager that Dana had. Yeah, I am, I'm also, I'm also calling out the company because to allow that to happen, it happens all the time and our, and our companies need to be more conscientious about the people they're putting in supervisory and management roles. Doing so without training, doing so without understanding what your role is and that is developing other people. You are shoving them in the into the Bosshole Zone. So to some degree, I could even acknowledge that this former manager of yours didn't know any better and it just perpetuated this situation, because nobody is born to be a Bosshole. It's just that we can't allow them to discourage, diminish, disengage or create that level of disengagement to where people are, are literally their lives are being impacted negatively in that way. I mean we invest a lot of time at work. The return on that investment ought to be good. But one of the things that we talk about at Real Good Ventures is, and you just said this, Dana, what we say is that everybody wants to be part of a healthy cause. You know, nobody goes into a role or a job thinking I hope this sucks, I, I hope I'm miserable, I hope you diminish me and make me and marginalize me. Nobody does that. So it's really not that hard to lift that atmosphere, that culture, which is what you're talking about in your book, and making it gratifying and rewarding in ways that go way, way, way beyond compensation or position or title. So back to the book. Really quick, Dana. Who is your audience? I mean you wrote this book to somebody, so who is that?
DV: Yeah, so primarily I targeted to like first line or new leaders, because some of the things that we learn, like I'm going to call it in our like leadership training programs or on board you know it really doesn't touch on things like there might be some about building relationships and connecting with your team members, but you know how do you do that. I think people, as we've talked about you know and making the time, you know I've I talked to somebody just recently who told me that they have had a 10 minute one on one with their leader. And it's like, "so are your, are your one on one's always 10 minutes?" and I was like, yeah, that's that's what it was just like. That is not investing time in that person.
JB: Right, that's checking a box.
DV: Yes, well said. So what? What kind of return are you going to get on that investment? No. But if you do take the time, so it's things like that that, again, are not kind of taught in, like our onboarding or a foundational leadership program, unless you have one that touches on things like demonstrating empathy, gathering all of the information, because sometimes you know, as leaders we think we know best and maybe, but maybe not, yeah, so are you listening to what people's obstacles are and can you help remove their obstacles? Things of that nature. Really, a lot of it is around connecting with people and you know a lot of times you hear the language today about meeting people where they are. So not every employee wants what you want. Not every employee is going to be as engaged as you are or have the work ethic that you have, or think the way that you do. We all see the world very differently. Can you invest some time in understanding how they see the world and therefore their behavior? That you might think why would you do that or think that or say that? But it made sense to them. If you know them, if you get to know them and spend time with them, then those things start to make sense to you and you know how to better engage with them in the future.
JB: You make me want to encourage everybody that listens in and over the last three years, our The boss- we call it the Bosshole Transformation Nation. I mean it's really grown. We've got lots and lots of people listening into the podcast and for all of those people that have, obviously we all have Bosshole stories. But I think to your point, when you have a great manager, just as we want to get encouragement from our managers and acknowledgement, I think we need to share that back with them. So this would be an encouragement to all of you listening in and who have a great manager right now. Let them know that you know, just say, "hey, listen, I appreciate you. I appreciate when you acknowledge when this happens, or this happens Because we just recently had a two-part episode with Dr Bill Schaninger, formerly with McKinsey. He and a few of his colleagues co-wrote a book called "Power to the Middle, because right now, and statistically speaking, middle managers are burning out, they are struggling right now. I think part of it is done because we put again, we elevate, people into management and supervisory roles without the right training and at the same time, the marketplace is tough, the battle for labor and talent is tough and this hybrid workforce now, the world of work is totally changed and we really haven't equipped them for it. So when you do have that great manager non-Bosshole, as we would say, let them know that. I think that's really powerful because as a manager, I always appreciated it when somebody acknowledged that they recognized I was really trying to do my very best and when it worked, I'd like to know that it worked. So, anyway, you made me think of that, you inspired me to think of that, Dana.
DV: I'm glad you said that too, because where I am now and the boss I have now, she's great and so I'm going to tell her that.
JB: Well, listen. So a reminder to everybody get the show notes. If you want to connect with Dana via LinkedIn, her LinkedIn profile, link to her LinkedIn profile, will be in the show notes, and especially a link to her book. Dana, let me ask you this, what's? I don't know, what's next? What's on the horizon for you? Anything fun, new or exciting?
DV: So the organization that I work for now we are a member organization, so companies, usually small to mid-sized companies, a lot of times organizations that don't have their own HR shop, so we help them with all things HR and really what I'm working now is in the learning and development space, writing programs and sometimes facilitating leadership programs and really enjoying the work. So it's nice and it's a great company, great atmosphere and just really happy that that worked out this way, absolutely.
JB: Absolutely, and I'll tell you what. I can put a link to the organization in the show notes as well. Just share with our listeners the name of the organization.
DV: Yeah, it's MRA, so it's the Management Association, and again, we're an association, so companies are members, right, yeah? So sometimes we go into their organization and do facilitated training. Sometimes we do things that are more, I'll call it public, and then anybody can go to that too.
JB: Wonderful, wonderful. Well, Dana, thank you so much for sharing your story, the inspiration behind your book, "The Workplace atmosphere. Make sure everybody goes in and check out the show notes, learn more about this great publication and Dana's great work. Great having you on the Bosshole Chronicles. We really appreciate it.
DV: Thank you so much, John, I appreciate it.
JB: All right, everybody, keep checking out those new episodes, give us your feedback, follow the podcast and it was great having you this week and we'll see you next time on the Bosshole Chronicles. We'd like to thank our guests today on the Bosshole Chronicles and if you have a Bosshole Chronicles story of your own, please email us at mystory@thebossholechronicles. com. Once again, mystory@thebossholechroniclescom, we'll see you again soon.