Kamini Wood - Human Beings versus Human Doings
Have you ever felt like an imposter in your own life, grappling with self-doubt and a lack of authenticity? Kamini Wood, the brilliant mind behind Live Joy Your Way and the Authentic Me Rise Up Program, joins us to unravel these complex feelings and guide listeners toward a life of genuine self-discovery and empowerment.
Links and Resources from the Episode:
Click here for Kamini's website
Click here for Kamini's LinkedIn page
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The Bosshole® Chronicles
“Kamini Wood - Human Beings versus Human Doings”
Original Publish Date: 4/30/2024.
Host: John Broer
John Broer: A warm welcome to all of our friends out there in the Bosshole Transformation Nation. This is your host, John Broer, welcoming you to yet another installment of the Bosshole Chronicles and a subject matter expert episode. Today you're going to get a chance to meet Kamini Wood. Kamini is a remarkable person. She is the founder and CEO of Live Joy Your Way and the Authentic Me Rise Up Program, international bestselling author. She is a consultant and a coach and really her focus is on helping clients nurture their mental, emotional, physical and strategic plan for their lives.
And one of the other things that I really think is cool is how she helps people deal with internal obstacles such as people-pleasing, over-giving, over-functioning, hyper-achievement, perfectionism, procrastination, burnout, self-doubt and imposter syndrome. We're going to talk about all that stuff, so settle in and get a chance to meet this remarkable person, Kamini Wood.
The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode.
Kamini, it's great to have you on the Bosshole Chronicles. Welcome.
Kamini Wood: Thank you, John, for having me.
JB: I'm excited for the Bosshole Transformation Nation to meet you because we were introduced through a mutual connection and you and I had a chance to talk a few weeks ago to prepare for this.
But your work in coaching, and I mean coaching on all different levels, you are coaching executives and couples and students, and all of this work is so very important. Now our interest is the work you're doing with managers and supervisors and specifically how you are helping them stay out of the Bosshole Zone. To start things off, I think it would be really helpful for our listeners to learn more about your approach. So, Kamini, your approach is rooted in self-reflection and you take people through a process of self-discovery, of insight, looking deeper in terms of those things that are most important to them, that drive them. Of course, our audience knows what we do around behavioral analytics, but tell us more about how you approach your work with people.
KW: Yeah, and let me just say I actually really I admire and I have a strong affinity towards what you guys do in terms of the metrics, because I think that they're important, but from my perspective and my approach, it is all about understanding of self and sometimes what happens, at least in my work with my coaching when we've gone through assessments, it's so easy for my clients to then put themselves into a defined box. My work is all about can we take those prisons away, so to speak? Can we allow ourselves to step away from defining ourselves through some external source just for a little while? Get back to the basics of understanding who you are as a person, which is, I mean, it lies within your core values and your needs, as well as your beliefs, right? What do you believe about yourself?
JB: Right.
KW: Because what happens is and again, all aspects, but leaders too when we are building ourselves into leaders, if we don't have a core belief of we are meant to be here, or we are deserving of being here, or we are worthy of being here, those self-doubt beliefs can contribute to things like imposter syndrome, which then can contribute to how we show up as a leader. So for me in my work, when working with leaders or potential leaders, it is taking the time to define who you are in terms of those values, those needs and how you really see yourself.
JB: You know, that's a really important perspective because we would never want anybody to feel pigeonholed to say, well, I guess that's what the data says, so that's who I am. I mean, we can measure somebody's natural wiring, but we always want to focus on adaptation. How does that self-awareness help you understand the way you adapt to the world around you in a healthy way? You know it's sad when somebody feels like they are being forced into a box and that's reinforced by either a manager or maybe a family member, and those limiting factors are just being reinforced and for many people that becomes reality. That's how they see themselves and the world around them. So that's really what you're doing is you're seeking to help people break down those prisons, those limiting factors, and understand their true nature. So, Kamini, how did you really come about this type of work? What was the inspiration behind it?
KW: Yeah, honestly, John, it was not a linear path for me. I was actually working as a project manager in the dot-com industry. I worked my way up to running a project management office and then eventually started and ran a law firm. But for me, every single role that I was in, I found myself wanting to talk to the individuals about what they needed, what they needed to be successful in the role that they were playing. How could I help them, how could I support them? So that was on a professional trajectory and then on a personal trajectory.
As a mom, one of the things I was noticing with my kids was a lot of people-pleasing, perfectionist behaviors. From a personal perspective, I recognized that that was coming from how I was noticing with my kids was a lot of people-pleasing, perfectionist behaviors. From a personal perspective, I recognize that that was coming from how I was showing up, because I am a high achiever myself. I tend to be extraordinarily perfectionist oriented, definitely a people pleaser by nature. So I had to do my own self-work and as I went through that self-transformation, I recognized that from a professional standpoint, what I was really meant to do was take what I really enjoyed, which was working with individuals and helping them understand themselves and helping them live into who they wanted to be within that professional world. But I could take these two things and bring them together and become this individual who helps people honestly live into their own human potential.
JB: And that expertise includes a number of certifications. I would remind all of our listeners to go to the show notes and see Kamini's links, and you will learn more about her credentials and her significant capabilities. So I really want to ask you, Kamini, what are you seeing these days in terms of changes or trends when it comes to the people that are seeking out your expertise and your coaching and your guidance? I mean, what are the things that we need to be paying attention to in today's marketplace that perhaps we haven't seen in the past?
KW: I do think that we're at a crossroads. So I do see that there are still companies and corporations that might have the old school way of thinking in terms of top-down approach, like a hierarchy in management style, and then I'm seeing other companies starting to bring things in such as mental health, emotional wellbeing, into the fold, recognizing that the individuals that are working for them are and you and I talked about this we're not human doings, we're human beings. And if we can recognize that who we're bringing in to work on our team is a human being and look at them as this whole individual, not just the things that they're producing or the accomplishments that they're having in their role that they're playing, we actually get more out of that team member. We don't have as much burnout, we don't have as much turnover, because what ends up happening is they feel that they are contributing, not just through the things that they're doing, but they feel, seen Dan Siegel talking about, in relationships we need to be seen, we need to have safety, we need to have some security and we need to have the ability to be soothed.
Those are his four main things. He talks about it in context of parenting, but the same thing happens within corporations. Our employees do. They need to be seen, they need to be heard, they need to have that ability to feel safe and secure and soothed, not in a oh, let me coddle you, but soothed in the sense of this is what my employee needs. And so, talking about leadership, if you can have that understanding of the people who are on your team and those are the core needs that they would have you're able to show up more as an empathetic leader, and that's, I think, the crossroads that we're at is recognizing that that whole top down, I'm the most powerful. Listen to what I have to say. Just because I'm the boss, it's no longer working. I'm noticing it even in the college students that are graduating. Those are not the cultures that they're looking for in terms of where they want to go work. They want an environment where they're going to have some ability to have a voice.
JB: Yeah, I mean that is right in the heart of what we talk about. When you compare the old command and control model versus trust and autonomy, I mean, really it calls for a different operating system. The command and control methodology is still alive and well in a lot of organizations out there, where managers are just overseeing what you're doing. I can't imagine a lot of college students would want that, let alone the emerging workforce I mean our workforce right now wants more trust and autonomy and that is a big change. That's a big leap for some organizations. I mean, let's face it, it is a vicious cycle.
You have organizations out there that take great individual contributors and they elevate them into management roles without any training or guidance about what it means to actually transition into being a manager or developer of other people. You could absolutely see how imposter syndrome can set in and people saying what the heck am I doing here? So it is a recurring theme, if you will, that we really do need to break, and it begins with our leaders, our managers, our supervisors. So, Kamini, what about the college students with whom you're working? I could absolutely see how they would view the world of work in a negative way. I mean, I absolutely could see that I mean Gallup. In their most recent study, Gallup has disengagement at a nine-year high. I would love to hear how they are seeing the world and what you're learning from them.
KW: That's such a great question because it is a difficult position to be in, because we need to encourage them to enter the work environment. So I use the same approach that I'm using with a lot of my clients, depending on wherever they are, which is getting really clear on what it is that they value and what they need in the environment that they're looking for. And then it is to be really patient and not just jump into the first role that they're offered they go in for interviews. It's recognizing that they're interviewing the employer as much as the employer is interviewing them. It's encouraging them to recognize that this is going to be a give and take, that they have as much voice as the employer has. I think that's the key. That, as when we're talking about boss roles, for instance, that's what we have to recognize is that our team members have to have that voice and they do have a voice.
And you know that disenchantment that you mentioned, I do believe comes from things like burnout, things like not feeling as though they have a voice or that their opinion matters, or what they're. You know we talk about insufficient rewards when we're talking about burnout and a lot of what that really it's not always related to money. A lot of times it's related to just being acknowledged for the contribution that we're making. And if we have a Bosshole, who's just, it's never good enough. That's going to continue to eat away at somebody and they're going to start believing that, no matter what I do, it's never good enough. That goalpost keeps moving and it's almost like a toxic relationship. The goalpost moves and then you do that thing and the goalpost moves. Eventually, those employees they do. They get frustrated and they have no more desire or motivation to contribute to the team.
JB: So you're really helping them understand that they have to vet their potential employer, which is a big flip from when I was interviewing and we didn't have that much leverage. That is a change. I would imagine, Kamini, a lot of your work also involves helping these young people decide what field is even of interest to them. I mean, it's not uncommon to run into people that have been in the work world for a little while in a vocation or a particular field, because their parents were in that field or somebody said, hey, this is a great job if you want to make good money. But they have no feel for it, they are not wired for that and that's really sad to see because ultimately they become disengaged and they are unhappy. I would imagine you run into that.
KW: Oh, all the time. A lot of our conversations are around that it's a lot of people will come in, especially the younger people. It's like, well, exactly what you said, my mom did this or my dad did this, or this is what my parents want me to do. I always am respectful. I understand, I totally honor that. And also asking those questions around what lights you up? Because if we just we can, we can take a job that can just be a job that pays the bills and continue to find other things that bring us joy.
We're going to be spending most of our day doing the work and we want that intrinsic motivation to continue to perform at our place of employment. Finding something that we do truly enjoy, we have some connection with, is gonna be important. So I do with a lot of my younger clients, as well as even my older clients. I'm a mature client, so you're like you know what? I've been doing? Something that doesn't bring me joy. We do a lot of work around what is it that fills you up? What is it that brings you joy? What are the things that you want to experience? What is it that you want to contribute? Because if we can identify those things now we're starting to get to this place of finding the role or finding the industry that that individual actually wants to engage with.
JB: That is such a great point, because it's not unusual for us to run into people that have been in a line of work or a field or vocation for a long, long time and they hate it. They just do not like it, and whether they got into it from the encouragement of others or because of the money, they're just not fulfilled. They are miserable, and you know what we get one shot at this Life is way too short for us to be miserable in the work that we do, and so finding that fulfillment, understanding that about ourselves, is really crucial, and that's what you're doing. I mean, you're catching them at an early time to be able to help them find a pathway that hopefully they will find more fulfilling. It's also important to point out that central to your work, kamini, is the focus on communication and especially listening. I think we can get kind of cavalier about how important communication is. It absolutely is, but it is a skill and it's something that needs to be developed. How does that weave into your work specifically?
KW: So I really utilize Marshall Rosenberg's work on nonviolent communication. I think that concept is across the board. Effective personal relationships are workplace relationships. So, especially in the context of becoming a leader, recognizing that when we are communicating to people on our team, if we approach them with a you did this or you failed at this, or you didn't do X, as soon as that other person hears the word you, everything shuts down. Because immediately, as individuals, as humans, as soon as we hear that you, we go into defense mode. So everything that's being said to us and reflected to us, we're trying to defend against it and so we're probably not even in a position to have a cohesive conversation at that point.
So Marshall Rosenberg's concept of nonviolent communication takes four different pillars and essentially it says take an observation, what are you observing, is happening as the individual? Observing that and experiencing that, what is it that you feel like as an individual? So it's an, an I feel, and then go into the I need and then a request of the other person. And I find that we can translate that into effective leadership. Because if, as a leader, we're noticing a team member maybe not performing, that person on the receiving end is on the defensive, they're not hearing you, but instead, if you go in and you're saying I'm observing or I'm seeing that these metrics or metrics are not being met or goals that we've set for the team are being missed, and what I'm really feeling is nervous about whether or not we're going to be able to execute and deliver on time, and I really need all of my team members to show up and be able to follow through on their deadlines. And then you make a request of the person that you're speaking to.
That's just a brief example. That is a totally different way to approach that conversation, and then you can get into specifics with that person. Right, then you can get into. This is what I'm noticing In your particular case. This is what I'm seeing and noticing. What do you think about that? Now we're having a dialogue where the person on your team feels like they are part of the conversation and in that context, it's also listening to what they say back to us. So we're making a request, but then being able to allow that space for that person to express what it is that they want to share and then truly hearing what they're wanting to share, which really challenges us not to always be ready with the next thing we're going to say, but instead listen to what they're saying, understand it, ask some questions if we're not fully understanding it, and then again engaging in conversation after that.
JB: You know, on its face that makes so much sense. You know, making the you comments and sounding accusatory is just going to shut people down, and converting it to how I feel, or this is how I am seeing, this changes the tone and the tenor of communication entirely. Why on earth is this so hard to do? Is it just because in the moment we forget, or are we just conditioned to accuse others of what they did?
KW: That's such a great question, you know. I wish I had like the definite answer to that. I think a lot of it comes from our own internal stories, though.
JB: Okay.
KW: That's why, with my leaders that I'm working with, what we coach around is understanding what are those internal narratives, what's your own inner critic saying, or what is the narrative that you're carrying with you, because oftentimes when we go into those new statements or we come at somebody that way, it's because we're projecting our own insecurity about something. So, having that self-reflection and that self-awareness of what's really going on for me, getting curious so not in a shame-based way, but in a curiosity-based way what's going on for me before I approach this team member, what is it that I'm experiencing and what is it that I'm feeling, so that when I show up, it's no longer about me. It's really about the person that I'm working with and trying to help elevate, which, again, I find in terms of leadership skills. That's one of the things that I constantly am talking about in terms of building an empathetic management style versus that top-down approach.
JB: So, as we think about empathy or an empathetic approach, that would suggest a certain degree of emotional intelligence, because empathy is one of the skills of emotional intelligence. How does EQ factor into this? Communication and listening and establishing a healthy dialogue with people.
KW: Well, first of all, you're absolutely right, I am referring to emotional intelligence. You know, when I'm talking about empathetic leadership, it is about emotional intelligence. Can I understand not just what's happening for me, but can I also put myself in the position of the person that I'm managing, maybe understand where there might be a lack of communication or a lack of understanding? And instead of it being you don't know this it's. How can I now support this individual to learn what it is that they need to learn, the emotional intelligence, in terms of why it is so important, because, again, it goes back to us at the very beginning of our talk today it's we're dealing with a person, not a doer. So if we continue to come back home to that, that allows us to actually communicate and allows us to lead the actual person, because we you know we're getting into this age of AI and you know all things, we can find things to do. What we really need is the human being, and so I personally believe that emotional intelligence is a huge factor in terms of building our leadership skills. I think that having that self-awareness allows you to continue to grow into the leader you want to be, and it does break that imposter syndrome that you mentioned before, where it's.
Well, I don't really know how to do this. I'm not really sure I'm supposed to be doing this. I'm just going to follow, maybe, my boss hole from before. Instead, you slow down. You're like, okay, I'm going to take the time to build on becoming aware of what's going on for me, build my own emotional intelligence, and then take that into my leadership skills and maybe, as you're doing that self-reflection recognizing wow, this might not be something that I totally understand or know and asking for support. That's actually going to keep you out of becoming a Bosshole. Because what happens is most often we're seeing that those who find themselves in the Bosshole dynamic, they're not willing to do that self-reflection or ask for support when they find there's not something that maybe is a strong suit. Asking for support and asking for help is not a weakness. It is actually a strength, because that shows that you're willing to learn.
JB: Oh, that is so true. I mean, it is a choice. Managers a lot of times make a choice to be more vulnerable. We talked about vulnerability-based trust and confessing and acknowledging that, hey, I don't have the answers, but I'm willing to work with you and we're going to work together to find those answers. Or you could take the more hardline, autocratic approach that really doesn't serve anybody and just creates more of those barriers between a manager and his or her direct reports.
Kamini, let me ask you this we have been really focusing our work at Real Good Ventures on reinventing the workplace, because it is in need of reinvention. Actually, it's undergoing reinvention and a lot of organizations don't even know that. In the last few years, we've been speaking a lot about reinventing the manager. So the manager of today has to be different, has to look different, has to learn differently and understand the workforce in a different way. So I'd be interested to know, from your perspective, what are you seeing around the corner? You're talking with college students, young people, more senior leaders, but if you were addressing a group of business owners and leaders and you were to say this is the stuff you got to watch out for, this is the stuff that's around the corner. What would that be?
KW: So there's some things that, for self that I talk about making sure that every single day, you're doing your own self-reflection what went well, what maybe didn't go well, recognizing your own behaviors for embracing your own mistakes. You can lead by example. It's not I know everything and so therefore, and I'm perfect and so therefore, you know you should listen to everything. I have to say. The other part that we're talking about when we're looking at the next year or so, it's flexible thinking. It's almost growth zone versus comfort zone. It's maybe this is what we've known, but what might we be willing to change or shift to step into that growth zone. Leading into what you were saying where some of the workforce doesn't want to necessarily be in the same location.
They want hybrid or they want virtual. That requires flexibility. Can I look at this differently, instead of is the way I've seen it and this is the way I've done it, but what could be possible if I allow for movement or shifts here and there? Again, listening to what your employees and your team members are saying, really hearing what they're saying, really allowing for them to be seen and be heard. It doesn't mean that you do everything that they ask, but taking in and asking those curious questions. Is there a way to make this work for them? Is there a way that we can either, yes, give them what they're asking for, or maybe meet them in the middle and negotiate?
JB: That reminds me of a book I read gosh. It was years ago by. I think he was the former president of UC Irvine and I think the name of it was called "Thinking Gray or Think Gray. But anyway, he was an engineer, he was trained as an engineer.
But he says when he got into leadership he had to look at the world differently. He couldn't look at it just in very linear black and white terms or a black and white framework. He had to think gray. He had to think more broadly, because if the organization was going to be successful, it was going to be successful through its people, and people can't be defined easily in systematic, linear ways. As Patrick Lencioni says messy, fallible human creatures. So this is one of those areas where he had a chance to think more broadly, and I think that's what you're encouraging people to do.
Kamini is, as managers and leaders, developers of people just human beings don't be trapped by conventional thinking and to think more broadly. But I also want to remind everybody as we wrap up please go to the show notes and check out Kamini's website. There's some really, really cool things in there. For example, some of her programs include well, you'll see the one-on-one coaching. There's something called Effectively Manage Stress and Overwhelm, a self-guided course. There is Rise Up and Overcome Limiting Beliefs, but the one that really jumped off the page at me was Stop Treating Yourself Like Shit. Kamini, tell us a little bit more about that program.
KW: It's a deep dive with yourself. Now, of course, it's a deep dive with just yourself. So you don't have the support with the actual one-on-one coaching. Jumpstart into getting to know yourself better, because so often we end up in the workforce. We did the whole school thing. We end up in the workforce and we haven't even done the time to get to know who we are as a person Values, beliefs, needs recognizing. What are some of those narratives you're telling yourself we talk a lot. In that course there's a whole module on the inner critic. Recognizing that sometimes how we talk to ourselves is going to actually keep us playing smaller. Being able to become aware of that, because once we become aware of these things now we have the ability to make a change. With this awareness, what do I choose to do? The six-week course is really designed to jumpstart you into that.
JB: So, for those people listening, if you think, man, I'd love to get started with Kamini's expertise. That self-paced program could be a great stepping stone and move on to one-on-one coaching, which I know she would love to do with you, kamini, this has been great. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your expertise with the Bosshole Transformation Nation. I do hope you get some of our audience reaching out to you. Best of everything.
KW: Thank you so much for having me.
JB: All right, we'll catch you next time on the Bosshole Chronicles. We'd like to thank our guests today on the Bosshole Chronicles and if you have a Bosshole Chronicles story of your own, please email us at mystory@thebossholechronicles.com. Once again, mystory@thebossholechronicles.com. We'll see you again soon.